Vidas: Hi guys, this is Vidas.
Ausra: And Ausra.
V: Let’s start episode 156, of #AskVidasAndAusra Podcast
V: This question was sent by Monte. He writes:
"Maybe one day you could create a course revealing how you decide to articulate legato fingering for the Bach scores that you recently made available. It’s kind of mysterious. The Ritchie and Stauffer organ technique book has a lot on this, but having you explain and demonstrate adds a lot of value."
V: That’s an interesting question, right Ausra?
A: Yes, it is.
V: We have talked a lot about the principles behind early music fingering, but we haven’t created a step-by-step course on this, right? Like, for example, what Monte probably means, is that the camera would point somewhere from our shoulder, right? And as we are playing it, this choral or music order let’s say in this case Bach music, the camera would point to our hands, right? And then as we’re playing, we should probably demonstrate and explain the changes of the fingering we’re making.
A: Well, yes, and I would like actually to separate these things; you’re talking about Bach as early music. I would not call Bach music early, and I would not use fingering in Bach music. For example I use when I play, let’s say, really early pieces, Estampie Retrove from Robertsbridge Codex, or Faenza Codex or really early stuff. Because Bach music is already such a complex music that you can not sort of use only early fingering. For example, in many cases you have to use the thumb or the black keys or accidentals, yes.
V: I think you are right Ausra, because simply this of fact; Bach uses many more accidentals.
A: I know, and the more accidentals you have, the more you have to use things like thumb under, or thumb on the accidentals. And all kinds of tricks, and you know what I think Monte is talking about is that he wants to get from us some sort of a system. But I don’t think that there is complete system that you can apply to any given piece of music, because each music even by J. S. Bach is so unique that sometimes you have to have unique solutions.
V: And I fully agree with you. I just want to add of course I’m talking about Bach because that’s what Monte is interested in. And we’re talking about early music. And the only thing that I wouldn’t do with Bach in comparison to real modern music or romantic music is probably finger substitution and glissando.
A: Yes, that’s definitely.
V: You could get away without that.
A: Sure, sure, you wouldn’t want to do that in Bach.
V: Even when you have two voices in each hand, you could still play without finger substitution, I think, in most cases. But there are exceptions, there are exceptions, even in Bach. So remember we could each talk a little bit about our experience in playing E flat Major Prelude and Fugue, because you are practicing it currently for the upcoming Bach birthday recital. And I, this morning, actually recorded a video with the camera pointing right above my hands so that my transcribers could transcribe fingering and pedaling from this video played at a very slow practice tempo. And probably this score of E Flat Major Prelude and Fugue by Bach BWV 552 will soon be available if you want to master this piece without much frustration in figuring out your own fingering, right? So Ausra, do you use a lot of thumbs on sharps and flats, lets flats because it’s E Flat music?
A: Sure. Not a lot but I use some definitely, yes. You cannot avoid that especially when the texture is so thick. If you would think about the first fugue, for example, there are two lines that are just killing me in that fugue, the ending of it and then ending of the first half of it. It’s really very complex. Sometimes I just feel that I’m playing with both my hands fully with all my fingers at the same time because of the thick texture. Don’t you get that feeling?
V: Absolutely, it’s a five part texture.
A: Sure.
V: Right? And I can guarantee, that if you wrote down your fingering, or somebody recorded you playing this piece from above, right, and if our transcribers would transcribe your own fingering and compare it to my own fingering, it would not necessarily coincide, right?
A: Yes, but,
V: And the learning also choices might be different.
A: Well, I think on the pedals we would agree more than on the fingering probably.
V: But when fingering gets very individual because the hand layout for each person is a little bit different, right? And the span of the palm is different for each person. You can, I don’t know, can you reach a tenth?
A: Some of the times I can reach with my left hand, not with my right hand.
V: Right. So, there are people that can hardly reach an octave.
A: I know.
V: So then they figure out some other ways to play those middle voices. Maybe they sometimes migrate from hand to hand.
A: Yes. For example, composers like Cesar Franck, he had such a wide hand. I was already, I almost forgot about it but recently I started to play sort of the second chorale in d minor by Cesar Franck which is probably my most favorite piece written by him. And sort of I remember how wide some of the intervals are. And if you have that Dover publication of his complete organ works, it has a picture of him.
V: The famous painting.
A: Yes, and you can see how wide his hands are. And in pieces like Choral No. 1 in E Major and in his Priere and his 2nd Chorale in B minor, those intervals are just enormous. And you just have to do transfers with one hand, at least.
V: It might not be a painting but every photograph of him.
A: Could be, could be, yes.
V: So going back to let’s say, example Bach’s BWV 552, we have talked about importance of placing the thumb on the black keys. Of course sometimes even in this advanced E Flat key, we have instances when you could play with early fingering. Let’s say if you have parallel Intervals of thirds or sixths. You easily play thirds with 2-4, 2-4, 2-4, if they’re not too fast. Or the sixth could be played 5-1-5, and 5-1-5. Don’t you think, Ausra?
A: Yes, there are places like this. But of course another thing which is very important when practicing this piece or any other Bach pieces that has multiple voices, that you have to know which hand is playing which line. Because it would be very easy, that’s why I like trio sonatas so much, that you have a single voice for each hand and one voice in the pedal. And you always know that is that way throughout the piece. But in a piece like E flat Major, Prelude and Fugue, you know sometimes you have to pickup a line from the bass line and play with your right hand, and sometimes you have to pick up some music from the treble clef and play with your left hand. And it’s very important to mark you score in those particular spots.
V: Before.
A: Before writing down anything.
V: So, when you write down fingering for yourself, do you notate divisions of the hand for the entire piece or go page by page?
A: Well I do it for the entire piece because it’s very important.
V: I have a different method because I’m very lazy. I tend to have a short attention span and I only can focus at one page a time. So when looking at one page at first, I divide the hands, and look at the places where my middle voice and my great from hand to hand, notate it in pencil, or if I’m doing this on the computer, I do this directly on the computer. And only then I would add fingering, right, for that particular page. I don’t go to the next page right away. So Ausra, do you think that this system is better than yours or not?
A: I don’t know, it just depends on what your character is, or how long can you stay focused. I think the result would probably be the same.
V: Of course, but still you will need fingering, right? You will complete the fingering whether you are working for one page at a time or the entire piece.
A: Yes, and for doing this division thing you have to sight-read the piece at the beginning to feel both hands. We often talk during our podcast, that you have to learn things in combinations and start to play everything together, right at the beginning. But you have to sight-right a piece first, with both hands and probably both feet. And this doesn’t matter that you may play half of the notes wrong. But when will you get to know the understanding where you will have to do the division between your hands. And after that you can write down correct fingering.
V: Well actually, if you make too many mistakes, then it might mean that this piece is too difficult for you at the moment.
A: Yes, that’s true. Because when you sight-read the piece through it gives you sort of an understanding how long it will take for you to learn it. Not to that final stage.
V: What do you mean Ausra? Do you have a system, a precise system of calculating the number of repetitions?
A: Well, no. But I sort of have a right intuition for things like this.
V: Let me say that I have a system that might work for you and it might not work for you, or other people, but it works sometimes for me. Whenever I play the piece and I sight-read it at a concert tempo, and I make mistakes, I have to record myself, and then play back that recording, and mark the mistakes on the score. And then I will count those mistakes and that will tell me how many repetitions do I need to play, because with each repetition, I usually master one mistake. Is this realistic enough, Ausra?
A: (Laughs). Well you know, yes and no, because mistakes are different. Sometimes you can just hit the wrong note but sometimes it might real technical difficulty. But you need many different repetitions to overcome.
V: So but I mean of course you have to sight-read it at the concert tempo while recording yourself and counting mistakes.
A: Is this possible to sight-read each piece at recital tempo?
V: Everything is possible but the result might be something you want to hear of course.
A: Yes. Try for example, one of Reger’s fantasies, chorale fantasies, and look how it works. For example, Fantasy on BACH and play it at concert tempo. Good luck with that. Have fun.
V: That simply means probably that you need to have many hundreds of repetitions.
A: That’s true.
V: It’s all about numbers guys. And math is our best friend. Thanks for listening, and remember to send us more of your questions. We love helping you grow. This was Vidas.
A: And Ausra.
V: And remember, when you practice…
A: Miracles happen!
Ausra: And Ausra.
V: Let’s start episode 156, of #AskVidasAndAusra Podcast
V: This question was sent by Monte. He writes:
"Maybe one day you could create a course revealing how you decide to articulate legato fingering for the Bach scores that you recently made available. It’s kind of mysterious. The Ritchie and Stauffer organ technique book has a lot on this, but having you explain and demonstrate adds a lot of value."
V: That’s an interesting question, right Ausra?
A: Yes, it is.
V: We have talked a lot about the principles behind early music fingering, but we haven’t created a step-by-step course on this, right? Like, for example, what Monte probably means, is that the camera would point somewhere from our shoulder, right? And as we are playing it, this choral or music order let’s say in this case Bach music, the camera would point to our hands, right? And then as we’re playing, we should probably demonstrate and explain the changes of the fingering we’re making.
A: Well, yes, and I would like actually to separate these things; you’re talking about Bach as early music. I would not call Bach music early, and I would not use fingering in Bach music. For example I use when I play, let’s say, really early pieces, Estampie Retrove from Robertsbridge Codex, or Faenza Codex or really early stuff. Because Bach music is already such a complex music that you can not sort of use only early fingering. For example, in many cases you have to use the thumb or the black keys or accidentals, yes.
V: I think you are right Ausra, because simply this of fact; Bach uses many more accidentals.
A: I know, and the more accidentals you have, the more you have to use things like thumb under, or thumb on the accidentals. And all kinds of tricks, and you know what I think Monte is talking about is that he wants to get from us some sort of a system. But I don’t think that there is complete system that you can apply to any given piece of music, because each music even by J. S. Bach is so unique that sometimes you have to have unique solutions.
V: And I fully agree with you. I just want to add of course I’m talking about Bach because that’s what Monte is interested in. And we’re talking about early music. And the only thing that I wouldn’t do with Bach in comparison to real modern music or romantic music is probably finger substitution and glissando.
A: Yes, that’s definitely.
V: You could get away without that.
A: Sure, sure, you wouldn’t want to do that in Bach.
V: Even when you have two voices in each hand, you could still play without finger substitution, I think, in most cases. But there are exceptions, there are exceptions, even in Bach. So remember we could each talk a little bit about our experience in playing E flat Major Prelude and Fugue, because you are practicing it currently for the upcoming Bach birthday recital. And I, this morning, actually recorded a video with the camera pointing right above my hands so that my transcribers could transcribe fingering and pedaling from this video played at a very slow practice tempo. And probably this score of E Flat Major Prelude and Fugue by Bach BWV 552 will soon be available if you want to master this piece without much frustration in figuring out your own fingering, right? So Ausra, do you use a lot of thumbs on sharps and flats, lets flats because it’s E Flat music?
A: Sure. Not a lot but I use some definitely, yes. You cannot avoid that especially when the texture is so thick. If you would think about the first fugue, for example, there are two lines that are just killing me in that fugue, the ending of it and then ending of the first half of it. It’s really very complex. Sometimes I just feel that I’m playing with both my hands fully with all my fingers at the same time because of the thick texture. Don’t you get that feeling?
V: Absolutely, it’s a five part texture.
A: Sure.
V: Right? And I can guarantee, that if you wrote down your fingering, or somebody recorded you playing this piece from above, right, and if our transcribers would transcribe your own fingering and compare it to my own fingering, it would not necessarily coincide, right?
A: Yes, but,
V: And the learning also choices might be different.
A: Well, I think on the pedals we would agree more than on the fingering probably.
V: But when fingering gets very individual because the hand layout for each person is a little bit different, right? And the span of the palm is different for each person. You can, I don’t know, can you reach a tenth?
A: Some of the times I can reach with my left hand, not with my right hand.
V: Right. So, there are people that can hardly reach an octave.
A: I know.
V: So then they figure out some other ways to play those middle voices. Maybe they sometimes migrate from hand to hand.
A: Yes. For example, composers like Cesar Franck, he had such a wide hand. I was already, I almost forgot about it but recently I started to play sort of the second chorale in d minor by Cesar Franck which is probably my most favorite piece written by him. And sort of I remember how wide some of the intervals are. And if you have that Dover publication of his complete organ works, it has a picture of him.
V: The famous painting.
A: Yes, and you can see how wide his hands are. And in pieces like Choral No. 1 in E Major and in his Priere and his 2nd Chorale in B minor, those intervals are just enormous. And you just have to do transfers with one hand, at least.
V: It might not be a painting but every photograph of him.
A: Could be, could be, yes.
V: So going back to let’s say, example Bach’s BWV 552, we have talked about importance of placing the thumb on the black keys. Of course sometimes even in this advanced E Flat key, we have instances when you could play with early fingering. Let’s say if you have parallel Intervals of thirds or sixths. You easily play thirds with 2-4, 2-4, 2-4, if they’re not too fast. Or the sixth could be played 5-1-5, and 5-1-5. Don’t you think, Ausra?
A: Yes, there are places like this. But of course another thing which is very important when practicing this piece or any other Bach pieces that has multiple voices, that you have to know which hand is playing which line. Because it would be very easy, that’s why I like trio sonatas so much, that you have a single voice for each hand and one voice in the pedal. And you always know that is that way throughout the piece. But in a piece like E flat Major, Prelude and Fugue, you know sometimes you have to pickup a line from the bass line and play with your right hand, and sometimes you have to pick up some music from the treble clef and play with your left hand. And it’s very important to mark you score in those particular spots.
V: Before.
A: Before writing down anything.
V: So, when you write down fingering for yourself, do you notate divisions of the hand for the entire piece or go page by page?
A: Well I do it for the entire piece because it’s very important.
V: I have a different method because I’m very lazy. I tend to have a short attention span and I only can focus at one page a time. So when looking at one page at first, I divide the hands, and look at the places where my middle voice and my great from hand to hand, notate it in pencil, or if I’m doing this on the computer, I do this directly on the computer. And only then I would add fingering, right, for that particular page. I don’t go to the next page right away. So Ausra, do you think that this system is better than yours or not?
A: I don’t know, it just depends on what your character is, or how long can you stay focused. I think the result would probably be the same.
V: Of course, but still you will need fingering, right? You will complete the fingering whether you are working for one page at a time or the entire piece.
A: Yes, and for doing this division thing you have to sight-read the piece at the beginning to feel both hands. We often talk during our podcast, that you have to learn things in combinations and start to play everything together, right at the beginning. But you have to sight-right a piece first, with both hands and probably both feet. And this doesn’t matter that you may play half of the notes wrong. But when will you get to know the understanding where you will have to do the division between your hands. And after that you can write down correct fingering.
V: Well actually, if you make too many mistakes, then it might mean that this piece is too difficult for you at the moment.
A: Yes, that’s true. Because when you sight-read the piece through it gives you sort of an understanding how long it will take for you to learn it. Not to that final stage.
V: What do you mean Ausra? Do you have a system, a precise system of calculating the number of repetitions?
A: Well, no. But I sort of have a right intuition for things like this.
V: Let me say that I have a system that might work for you and it might not work for you, or other people, but it works sometimes for me. Whenever I play the piece and I sight-read it at a concert tempo, and I make mistakes, I have to record myself, and then play back that recording, and mark the mistakes on the score. And then I will count those mistakes and that will tell me how many repetitions do I need to play, because with each repetition, I usually master one mistake. Is this realistic enough, Ausra?
A: (Laughs). Well you know, yes and no, because mistakes are different. Sometimes you can just hit the wrong note but sometimes it might real technical difficulty. But you need many different repetitions to overcome.
V: So but I mean of course you have to sight-read it at the concert tempo while recording yourself and counting mistakes.
A: Is this possible to sight-read each piece at recital tempo?
V: Everything is possible but the result might be something you want to hear of course.
A: Yes. Try for example, one of Reger’s fantasies, chorale fantasies, and look how it works. For example, Fantasy on BACH and play it at concert tempo. Good luck with that. Have fun.
V: That simply means probably that you need to have many hundreds of repetitions.
A: That’s true.
V: It’s all about numbers guys. And math is our best friend. Thanks for listening, and remember to send us more of your questions. We love helping you grow. This was Vidas.
A: And Ausra.
V: And remember, when you practice…
A: Miracles happen!
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