SOPP732: I think some pieces are just inherently "mismatched" with the performer

Vidas: Hello and welcome to Secrets of Organ Playing Podcast!

Ausra: This is a show dedicated to helping you become a better organist.

V: We’re your hosts Vidas Pinkevicius...

A: ...and Ausra Motuzaite-Pinkeviciene.

V: We have over 25 years of experience of playing the organ

A: ...and we’ve been teaching thousands of organists online from 89 countries since 2011.

V: So now let’s jump in and get started with the podcast for today.

A: We hope you’ll enjoy it!

V:  Hi guys!  This is Vidas.

A:  And Ausra.

V:  Let’s start episode 732 of Secrets of Organ Playing Podcast. This question was sent by Rien, and he writes:

Maybe you could answer this question in a podcast (referring to Benas): with some pieces you “feel” while practicing that everything comes together. And if you are there, you stay there. Even if you don’t play the piece for a while, it still flows (maybe with some light practice) out of your hands in the right way, while other pieces don’t seem to “stick”. What’s the reason? Not enough practice, wrong practice routines? Or just a mismatch between the piece and performer?

And Benas answers:

Hi, Rien, that's a very interesting topic you've touched upon - yes, I think some pieces are just inherently "mismatched" with the performer (I've had quite a few when I was learning piano in music school), but after a while I tried revisiting them and often found that the issue was the skill level required to play as well as understand the piece. But some of them just can't seem to be done right no matter how hard you try, yet they flow in other performers' hands and feet beautifully - maybe they could offer insight into how they perceive the piece? It surely would be interesting to know all the factors that go into "matching" the performer and the piece of music.

To which Rien answers:

It would be nice if Ausra and Vidas make a Podcast over it. I myself struggle with Toccatas (my brain seems to have troubles with repeating patterns) and with pieces with lots of accidentals. That’s the reason I still haven’t published “Prière à Notre Dame” by Boëllmann. There are lots of accidentals in it. So I prefer a piece written in 5 flats over a piece in F full with accidentals. But why? I think that’s interesting…

​V:  So Ausra, Rien was reacting to our recent podcast conversation about playing Trio Sonatas.  That was the question that Benas submitted earlier, how he’s scared to play more Trio Sonatas, remember?

A:  Yes, I remember.

V:  And that was a good discussion out of this episode.

A:  Yes. What came out, while reading all this, listening to what you were reading, sometimes I wanted to cry, sometimes I wanted to laugh, and sometimes I wanted to shout. (laughs)

V:  Let’s recap, and let’s explain what you’re talking about.

A:  Yeah. Let me talk first of all about those accidentals.  Well, I think that people, many people are scared of accidentals.  Remember our friend from Sweden who was performing that enormous, big piece with the choir by Latvian composer, and he showed our Partitura and he had to follow and the piece lasted like forever, and he would cry, “Oh look - there are like five crosses and six crosses!” At the beginning, I could not understand what he means by “crosses” and later I understood that he…

V: Sharps.

A:  …that he calls that “sharps” and he was terrified, although he performed entire piece already.

V:  It might be translation, literal translation from German.

A:  Could be, could be, yes.

V:  I’m not sure, but I’ve heard it before.

A:  Yes. But anyway, I think all this, because people are worried accidentals, there could be two reasons.  Either they are really bad at music theory, or another thing that it’s simply a mental block.  Because believe, if you know music theory really well, it does not matter if you play in C Major or in C sharp Major.  All keys are exactly the same.  They can feel different for your fingers, because of course I would say that the C major key is the most uncomfortable for the hand, because the more accidentals you get, the easier it gets for the arm and for your hand.

V:  Until a certain extent.

A:  Yeah, until a certain extent.

V:  It’s like playing pedal scales in C major.  Not as comfortable as D major.

A:  Yes.  And for example, when I’m playing the Barber, I just pray that piece would have more accidentals in the pedal, because it’s much easier to play accidentals in the pedalboard than lower keys.  So it’s all just the way of how you come up to the piece and what you say to yourself.  And in general, we talked about how we came back to the piece after a year and revisiting it and how it felt much better or it still felt worse.  In general, I think that many things for musicians depends on the mental state, and how can you put together things in your brain.

V:  Mm hm.

A:  Because if you say that this piece is not right for you, if it’s too difficult for you, it has too many sharps or flats, then of course you put like a mental block for yourself and you will not overcome it.

V:  Yes, and Rien asked me how I personally look at pieces with lots of accidentals and some dissonant music, right, music, abstract music, right.  Definitely it’s much more difficult than tonal music for me to play.  Also, I’m not a superman.  But I look at it as a professional:  if that’s the piece that they have to play, like somebody assigned it to me, or if I chose it to play because I like the piece, not necessarily because I think it’s easy, but I like it and I want to play it, I will find a way to master it one way or another.  Maybe it will not be as fast as the other music that I usually play, maybe not as easy, maybe it will require some special learning techniques and tricks, but I think the music is most important.  If you like it, you will find a way to persevere.

A:  And you know, I never think, what I know for sure, that if you will not challenge yourself, whatever kind of challenge you will choose, either to play trio, or not to play pieces with many accidentals, or to play let’s say toccata as Rien said, with repeating patterns…by the way Rien, I hate repeating patterns too, they hurt my hands and sort of yes, so I see what you mean.  But if you want to do that, you will never overcome yourself and you will never be comfortable with, because you cannot be comfortable with playing with many accidentals if you will not try.  So maybe I would suggest for Rien, maybe do a challenge for yourself over the summer.  Maybe every week, or every day when you’re practicing a new piece, add one more accidental.

V:  But that goes against Rien’s attitude toward playing, because for him, he said his music, organ playing, is relaxation.

A:  Then you should…

V:  After a stressful job, he gets home and gets this relaxing time on the organ and he can play and record.  So if we’re talking about really practicing and working out on the organ bench, that’s like another stressful routine for him.  I don’t know if he’s up to it.

A:  Well, that seems to be a hopeless business.  You cannot overcome something if you won’t do it and if you won’t challenge yourself.

V:  I think it’s more important to think about your goals.  What would you like to achieve in organ playing in three or six months or one year or five years from now.  Do you want to master all six Trio Sonatas, maybe like Benas wanted?

A:  Yes, but I’m not looking at such difficult pieces as Trio Sonatas, but let’s say the Prière…

V:  Prière, uh huh, it’s not very difficult.

A:  …a Notre Dame, yes, then definitely it’s worth to learn all those accidentals because it’s a beautiful piece.

V:  But it requires, of course, sort of attitude to be comfortable with uncomfortable, with being uncomfortable on the bench.  That’s the thing.  When you’re practicing Pilates in the morning, Ausra, do you always feel relaxed and easy?

A:  No, definitely not.

V:  No, you sweat.  You sweat.

A:  Yes.

V:  And you get strenuous exercise, and sometimes you want even to quit probably, in the middle.  Or not?

A:  No, when I start I never want to quit, but I know that many, many, many friends of mine look at me like I am insane, like something is wrong with me.

V:  Maybe they don’t have this goal that you do.

A:  Well, but if you know that it’s good for you, it helps for you, so why don’t you do it?

V:  Well yeah, that requires a shift in attitude.  Why are you practicing organ?  In general, right?  To have a good time?  Sure, that’s a good goal.  But then you will be at the same level in five years that you are now.  You will look at your, I don’t know, your portfolio of pieces that you mastered before, five years before right, if we are in the future, if we are five years from now, and this, the same pieces will be right now that you are playing, or similar pieces that you’re playing.  I think it’s good to play easy pieces.  I’m not against easy pieces at all.  I create easy pieces also.  But what my friend, our friend James Flores discovered is a very nice system.  I want to recapitulate it and repeat it, and focus on it a little bit.  Level 1 piece, Level 2 piece, and Level 3 piece - and you have to constantly be learning three pieces at least in your repertoire all the time.  Level 1 piece is the piece that you can sightread basically, or with minimal practice perform after a few tries.  That’s basically a piece you can do in one day.  Level 2 piece is  a piece that you need a week or a few weeks to do, so it’s considerably more.  Usually it’s like a longer piece and maybe even more advanced piece, but not as advanced as Level 3 piece.  Level 3 piece requires at least one month or several months, like many concert pieces are.  So if you constantly work on three pieces at the same time, you have also a piece for relaxation like Level 1, a little more difficult piece for short-term goal, a week or two from now, Level 2, and a longer term goal, a month or two after, from now, Level 3.  What would you say Ausra, is this…

A:  Yes, that's a very excellent approach.  I think it’s a very good way to approach the organ and to set yourself goals.  Because if you won’t challenge yourself, you won’t advance, that’s it.

V:  Yes, and there’s nothing wrong with people who don’t want to advance.

A:  Of course, but you know, yes.

V:  We have to be open minded about everybody, right?

A:  Yes, because you know, you just play maybe for yourself and maybe specific audience of yours.  Because I could not listen to Meditations all the time, or to loud and fast pieces all the time.  I need variety.

V:  Mm hm.

A:  And I myself try to play various music because if you just stick to one style that suits you, you will always just stay an amateur.

V:  Amateur in a good way, yes?  Because for example, Rien who has a question like this, why he is struggling more with a piece with lots of accidentals than a piece written with five flats.  It’s of course probably everyone is different.  But I think if he adapted such an approach that we are suggesting, always pushing a little bit yourself, just a little bit, then this piece with five flats will become easier, as easy as four flats, as easy as three, two, and one flat eventually, and these accidentals won’t bother him anymore.  And the same is with Benas.  Of course some pieces don’t seem to stick, right, to the hands right now.  But that’s temporary state.  I think in two months or three months from now, if Benas practices more difficult music and comes back to an older piece, he might discover something fresh about this piece and not be scared anymore.

A:  Yes, there is truth in what you are saying, but I also would like to contradict you a little bit, because each performer has its own character and its own ability level, and its own physicality.  Some of us are tall and skinny, and some are short and fat and - whatever.  Some have long fingers and some have short fingers, and some can reach octaves and can reach far beyond the octave. So some of us have like phlegmatic character, some melancholicals, melancholics, yes and others are really funny all the time, and I guess each of us has its own type of music that views is better than another type.  So that might be a part of that thing, why one piece sticks and another don’t.  Of course, technicality, technical ability is very important, but there are other sides of it as well.

V:  So in Rien’s case, if he likes to play cantabiles, right, he would always play only cantabiles.  He always would play adagios and relaxing pieces if that was his personality issue, right? But we can see on his YouTube channel, he has all kinds of music, even loud and fast music when it’s technically manageable.  So I would say it’s just technicality he has to overcome or not, and that’s it.

A:  Yes, most of the time, the problem sleeps in our technical skills.

V:  And the mind of course dictates how we are overcoming those technical skills.  Overcoming or not.  Mind of course lets us set goals and overcome those challenges.

A:  Yes, if it’s worth overcoming, because let’s say I think each of us has its own demons.  Like for me, it’s really hard to play thick texture because it really hurts my hands.  So I’m trying not to overuse them, because if you will push yourself in the wrong direction you might not be able to play one day at all.

V:  I also have similar situation with Schumann recently.  I wanted to record all the pieces by Schumann, Robert Schumann, on the organ.  And I recorded a few, and after I played a few more, I started noticing my hands hurt.  And then you said “stop.”  When I told you this, you said, “stop playing Schumann - look what happened to him, right?”

A:  Yes, he hurt himself, his hands.  So definitely not the easiest composer to play.

V:  Mm hm.  Yeah.  Look at your physique first and see what works for you.  And if your hands and feet allow you, then it’s only your mind which is stopping you.

A:  Yes, you know, and I often feel how nice that I’m not in school anymore and I can play whatever I want.  (laughs) It’s really nice, and nobody can tell you what to play and what not to play.

V:  And beautiful thing about organ repertoire, organ music in general, I’m now including improvisation too, and hymn playing, is that you will never run out of music to play.  Because we have like seven centuries of organ music written and surviving repertoire to look at, and to everyone’s taste, to everyone’s technical abilities.  If you have a certain kind of organ accessible to you, you can learn that kind of repertoire, if you don’t have that organ you learn another repertoire.  It’s all up to you, and it’s such a vast amount of choices that - it’s like reading books, you will never run out of books to read.

​A:  Sure, and I’m thinking that at some point I will play only hymns on the organ.  Because I’m putting so much effort into my YouTube channel over a few years, and my most popular video is hymn - Abide With Me - which I’m playing on our folding reed organ Henrietta.  Simply without pedals, with my two hands, and it’s still the most popular of my videos.  So why to struggle to play big pieces by J.S. Bach or Cesar Franck and other great composers, when you can just open your hymnal and play a hymn.

V:  It’s probably not necessarily revealing to the video itself, because it’s popular due to some certain algorithm that YouTube created, and maybe it resonated to a certain audience, right?  And maybe your other videos didn’t catch that algorithm for some reason.  But that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t play music that you love.

A:  Yes, but it’s easy to play hymns without any preparation.

V:  And of course, you can compose music based on those hymns, too.

A:  Yes, that’s what I’m doing.

V:  Nice.  So guys, this was a rather long conversation, but maybe it was helpful and shed some light on the matters that you are thinking about as well in your organ playing journey.  And if you want to submit any other requests or questions that we could discuss over the podcast one day, please do so.  We would be delighted to help you grow as an organist.  This was Vidas.

A:  And Ausra.

V:  And remember, when you practice,

A: Miracles happen.

V: This podcast is supported by Total Organist - the most comprehensive organ training program online.

A: It has hundreds of courses, coaching and practice materials for every area of organ playing, thousands of instructional videos and PDF's. You will NOT find more value anywhere else online...

V: Total Organist helps you to master any piece, perfect your technique, develop your sight-reading skills, and improvise or compose your own music and much much more…

A: Sign up and begin your training today at organduo.lt and click on Total Organist. And of course, you will get the 1st month free too. You can cancel anytime.

V: If you like our organ music, you can also support us on Buy Me a Coffee platform and get early access:

A: Find out more at https://buymeacoffee.com/organduo