Blog Archives

SOPP725: Is it possible at 78 years old to memorize?

4/30/2025

Vidas: Hello and welcome to Secrets of Organ Playing Podcast!

Ausra: This is a show dedicated to helping you become a better organist.

V: We’re your hosts Vidas Pinkevicius...

A: ...and Ausra Motuzaite-Pinkeviciene.

V: We have over 25 years of experience of playing the organ

A: ...and we’ve been teaching thousands of organists online from 89 countries since 2011.

V: So now let’s jump in and get started with the podcast for today.

A: We hope you’ll enjoy it!

V: Hi guys! This is Vidas.

A: And Ausra.

V: Let’s start episode 725 of Secrets of Organ Playing Podcast. This question was sent by Steve, and he wants to know “Is it possible at age 78 to memorize?” So, of course, we’re not at that age, Ausra, yet, but what are your initial thoughts?
A: Well, I would say for somebody it’s possible, and for others it’s not. It depends on what your condition is at that age. Because if they [don’t] have dementia or Alzheimer’s, then why not? Of course, the process will be much harder than for a young person to memorize, but it’s possible. Of course it depends on how you used your brain over the years.

V: Is it safe to assume that Steve doesn’t have dementia or Alzheimer’s, because he’s asking this question?

A: Definitely. But I cannot answer just considering one person, I need to see broader spectrum of things. And even without dementia or Alzheimer’s, if you have never learned, for example, any foreign languages, or do any other active brain work, it might be harder to memorize. Because let’s face it, what is very easy for a kid or a teenager to do during his student years, it’s harder for older. And with each year, it’s harder and harder to do things and to learn new things and to memorize. It just takes much more time, and much more effort.

V: Since we’re doing organ playing for decades now, it’s obviously a different situation for us, right? Because when we learn organ repertoire and if we want to memorize, we want to employ all our skills. Not just note reading, but also harmonic thinking, theory understanding and that also facilitates memorization. But let’s say that we are learning a foreign language, like Polish, right?

A: Yes.

V: We’ve been learning Polish for a few years now - three years. And you think, Ausra, that it’s now more difficult to learn new words in this foreign language than let’s say when you were 20 years old or 15 years old?

A: Of course, definitely, it’s much harder. At the beginning I thought it would be impossible, but actually I saw that it’s not impossible. It just takes more time.

V: Yes, it’s not impossible, but it takes more time. That’s the main takeaway for this subject. And that also applies in organ playing and organ memorization. And what would be some of the techniques that facilitate memorizing on the organ? How would you memorize if you had to do it? I will of course - you know my methods. I have a couple of them. One of my methods works better for me than others, but let’s hear from you.

A: Well, I always hated memorization, I have to tell you and I always started to learn it at the last moment, so I was always filled with stress, and I still get nightmares at night about that, dreaming that I have to go and to play and perform, and I don’t remember anything. But how I learned it, when I had to memorize, I would just repeat the piece over and over and over again.

V: And that is very, very…

A: That’s a very insufficient method, and you know…

V: Not recommended!

A: Then I would learn a few spots that I could start to play if something would happen. Let’s say the piece is five pages long, yes? So I would know maybe 3 or 4 spots where I could pick up and play. And that’s it! That’s how I memorized. But of course that’s a very very bad method, but most people memorize like that.

V: And, yes, and I also memorized like this for a long time, until I came across two methods. One would be by Helmut Walcha, the blind German organist, teacher of our professor George Ritchie. And he was a Bach scholar and recorded all of the complete works of J.S. Bach. So since he was blind, he would ask his student or maybe even his wife. I don’t know, maybe his student mostly, to play an excerpt, like a phrase of Bach’s work, and then repeat it for him a few times, and then he would memorize. But he wouldn’t want to play entire excerpt all the voices, but just one single line, like soprano line, 2 measures, right, or 4 measures, I don’t know exactly how long. And so on. Separate lines - soprano, alto, tenor, and bass. And he would repeat each of them on the organ. And then, when he could memorize each of those fragments separately, he would just combine in his head from memory all of them on the organ. I’m not sure if he would do all four right away, or combinations like 2 or 3 voices at first, but initially what he did was to learn polyphonic music, memorizing separate voices. That’s how he did, Helmut Walcha from Germany, and that’s how George Ritchie taught us this method as well, right Ausra?

A: Had he tried it out?

V: Yes, he insisted I actually learn one piece, so that was at the end of my doctoral studies at the University of Nebraska Lincoln, and he wanted me to learn fugue, the Fugue in C Major from the Prelude and Fugue in C Major, BWV 547. So I did this with him - not the Prelude part, but the Fugue part. Prelude part I think memorized it on my own in a different fashion, but I learned Helmut Walcha’s method on the fugue.

A: Did you enjoy it?

V: No. [both laugh]. It’s not my favorite method. It’s very painful to do memorization of single voices at first, and it’s very tedious work and slow, but knowing where George Ritchie is coming from, of course, from the heritage of Helmut Walcha, Helmut Walcha was a blind organist. And if you are blind, for example, probably learning all four voices at once, complete organ texture would be too much, right? I would assume so. So it makes sense to learn one single line, 2 or 4 measures long, and repeat it a few times until you can memorize it. Separate, separate voices.

A: But you know, yes, if you are blind and you are learning fugue, then it could be a good method. But if you can see and you are playing homophonic music, then I don’t see any sense in that, actually doing that.

V: Yeah, there are all kinds of music, and some of the music is more polyphonic than others. And for homophonic music, where there is like a melody and accompaniment or chordal texture…

A: Like hymns.

V: Hymns, yes.

A: Doesn’t make sense.

V: Then it doesn’t make sense. So then we go on to the next, second method, which is my favorite.

A: Oh yes.

V: Can you guess which one?

A: Yes.

V: Tell me.

A: Dupre’s method.

V: Marcel Dupre, famous French organist and composer. Long-term director of French Paris Conservatory. Prize winner of the Grand Prix of Rome - prestigious composition prize, and he described his method in his preface to 79 Chorales. This method, this educational collection of Chorale Preludes focused on the music to be learned before you learn the music of J.S. Bach. Those chorales. So because Orgelbuchlein chorales are much more difficult, let’s say, he decided to create his own collection of 79 chorales which would be like a prerequisite before learning J.S. Bach’s music. So, Marcel Dupre, and I talked about his method on a number of occasions before, but since Steve asks about it again, I think it’s worth repeating, Ausra.

A: Yes, you can do that, and I’ll take a nap!

V: And close your eyes…

A: Yes.

V: And imagine you’re in a happy place.

A: Sure.

V: Where is your happy place, Ausra?

A: Upstairs in my bed.

V: I thought it’s in some country, like Iceland.

A: Too cold.

V: Australia, maybe? OK, we need some intermediate place. I know - New Zealand! Okay, so Marcel Dupre writes in his preface to 79 Chorales that he suggests memorizing in four measure fragments. And Steve, who asked this question, could actually employ this method for awhile and see if it works for him. So, you take initial 4 measure fragment, but you learn just one measure at a time, measure 1. And start from the downbeat and end your fragment, end your measure on the downbeat of the next measure. Always end your fragment on the downbeat of the next measure, because that’s how you connect the old fragment with the new fragment later on, right? So you repeat 5 times. And now, I don’t know, Marcel Dupre didn’t say how many times you have to repeat, but for me, I would repeat this first measure 5 times while looking at the score, and then 5 times without looking at the score, and it works for me. It’s sufficient enough of repetitions to memorize one measure - 10 repetitions basically. And then you do the same thing but for the second measure. Start on the downbeat of the second measure, and end on the downbeat of the third measure. Are you awake Ausra? Are you awake?

A: Yes.

V: All right. Ausra is dreaming about New Zealand. And then, do the same thing for the measure number 3 and measure number 4. So to recap, you first learned measures 1, 2, 3 and 4 separately, playing 10 times - 5 times while looking at the score and 5 times without looking at the score. And what happens next is very interesting. You learn 2 measures at a time of the same fragment - you don’t go on to the next fragment. But just take measure 1 and 2 and do the same thing, 5 times looking at the score, 5 times without looking at the score. And end this fragment at the downbeat of measure 3. Always at the new fragment. Ausra is showing me time to stop. No, I will not stop! And then you learn measure 2 and 3 this way, and then 3 and 4, right? So you’re done with 2 measure fragments this way. And then do the same with 3 measure fragments, measures 1,2,3 together and 2,3,4 together. And only then do you, you have to memorize 4 measures at a time, 1,2,3 and 4. And by this time, it’s like second nature to you. You have repeated it so many times and it’s so easy. And you know, Ausra, what’s the good thing? You only spend 15 minutes for this fragment, 4 measures. It takes just 15 minutes.

A: But you know now I’m thinking about a symphony by Louis Vierne. The piece lasts like for half an hour, yes? I don’t know, a hundred pages long, how many measures are there. So how much time would you need to do that?

V: I’ll tell you exactly how many, how many hours. Four measures last about 15 seconds, so you have 4 fragments in one minute.

A: Okay, okay.

V: So for 30 minutes, you have 120 fragments to learn.

A: What if you have sequences, like in Vivaldi’s music? Do you need to do that boring stuff over and over again? It’s just the same in another key and you can play it right away.

V: Maybe, maybe it gets easier with some places.

A: Or let’s say you’re playing in sonata form, where you have exposition and recapitulation.

V: Then you obviously can skip this part.

A: Okay, I thought you would still have to do everything in this very boring way.

V: No. If it’s repeating, you can just repeat but without memorizing it because you have already memorized it. The tricky part when you learn 4 measure fragments is when you combine those fragments later. On day 2, you don’t only learn fragment number 2, measures 5,6,7,8. On day 2, you have to refresh fragment 1 with measures 1,2,3,4. And so on. Every day you start with refreshing all material.

A: Killing me softly.

V: You know, I know - it’s so cool because then you can learn entire symphony without any pain. [laughs]

A: Without any pain you call it?

V: Yeah.

A: You need to be so patient, and you need to have so much time.

V: 15 minutes a day isn’t that…

A: But how long the process will take?

V: I think 120 days - 120 days to learn one fragment at a time, right? And then you have to combine those fragments, so
I would assume more than that. It depends on everyone’s different memorization abilities of course.

A: I would suggest you don’t waste the time. I think that sight reading skill, good sight reading skill is much more valuable for organists…

V: Exactly.

A: …than playing from memory. With piano players.

V: And Ausra and I, we don’t play from memory. We play from scores. And if we do play from memory, we improvise. We play improvisation, that’s more, much more valuable stuff, skill to learn. But in case Steve asks, that’s my answer. If you want to memorize a piece like 2,3,4 measures long. I know Steve plays at church services. And usually those pieces are not very long, right, 3 minutes on average. You can do this in a week, I think. But of course there is no point of learning from memory a piece for church playing which you wouldn’t play next week, right. It’s just for that specific Sunday.

A: Well yes. You know.

V: Maybe if you repeat the same material next year let’s say, that would be valuable too. Or if you play a recital of your compilations from liturgical pieces, that would be possible.

A: I really envy people who have good photographic memory so they can easily memorize anything.

V: Yes.

A: And they don’t have to suffer over Dupre’s method.

V: So, do you think we delighted people long enough today?

A: Yes, and I think if you have insomnia and cannot sleep, you need to listen to this podcast, especially to that part where Vidas explains how you learn measure 1 and 2, and repetition of those 4 measures and how you connect and do it all over again, and I think you will fall down and…

V: [laughs]

A: By being so bored.

V: Yes, yes. Good podcast to fall asleep to.

A: Sure.

V: That could be our tagline. Okay guys, I hope this was useful to you in some way [laughs] at least to help you sleep. So, if you have any other questions, please send us. We would be delighted to help you out. And remember, when you practice,

A: Miracles happen.

V: This podcast is supported by Total Organist - the most comprehensive organ training program online.

A: It has hundreds of courses, coaching and practice materials for every area of organ playing, thousands of instructional videos and PDF's. You will NOT find more value anywhere else online...

V: Total Organist helps you to master any piece, perfect your technique, develop your sight-reading skills, and improvise or compose your own music and much much more…

A: Sign up and begin your training today at organduo.lt and click on Total Organist. And of course, you will get the 1st month free too. You can cancel anytime.

V: If you like our organ music, you can also support us on Buy Me a Coffee platform and get early access:

A: Find out more at https://buymeacoffee.com/organduo

DON'T MISS A THING! FREE UPDATES BY EMAIL.

Thank you!

Categories

Archives